i've been on and off moving some things around in our house during my jazz listening today (so the currently upbeat good ass Patrice Rushen tracks are helpful) and my brain, when directing my body to do repetitive low attention tasks like "move stuff from a to b", wanders.

today it wandered to family music.

so, while I'm taking a break from wearing a path in some floors, I'm going to ramble, thread-style.

there's a social dynamic that's arisen over the last 20? years maybe wherein two acquaintances might find themselves at a conversation point where one asks the other "so, are there any musicians in your family?"

and then the other participant will either list off a sibling or two who played in band in school, maybe a parent who sings.

and then it's off to other topics, often, as I've seen it happen anyway.

if, by some happenstance, someone of a young-ish generation dropped into casual conversation with my grandfather and asked, he would have looked confused and then listed off what each member of his family did musically.

because when he was a kid, everybody did music. every body.

to put it in perspective a little more, my grandfather was one of thirteen siblings whose parents were German immigrant farmers to the US.

thirteen kids, all did something musically. they weren't an outlier, they were just a family of farmers.

it wasn't that they were all remarkably talented or showed early promise or anything like that.

it was the only way music happened for people. music happened by making it. at home, at school, at church, in town, to celebrate, to mourn, to advertise, all of it.

so my great aunts and uncles and grandparents played fiddles and organs and guitars and spoons and harmonicas and sang because otherwise they'd have no music at all.

recordings were new and sparse. there weren't a thousand new tracks released every Thursday.

there weren't any bands touring an arena near them. there weren't tour buses anyway.

so teaching each other music, and practicing music together, became part of social things, so that music could be shared. it's always been that way for sung music, but with the advent of the industrial revolution and some other economic changes it became easier for common folk to get inexpensive instruments. and they did - they loved it!

because it's meta - it's part of thousands of years of teaching through storytelling. sometimes abstract, sometimes concrete, but constant. we sing songs. we make music.

with the rise of consumerism and institutionalized learning and some other things, music started to become an add-on activity to life.

some people do music. other people don't, they just listen to music.

and everyone said "well, of course - some people just aren't good at music. they just aren't meant to be musicians! and that's okay!"

and it is okay. absolutely no one should feel forced into music. there is enough music in silence.

but that first bit, the assumption, is off base.

no one is good at music without doing it. lots.

like I said, not all of my greats and grands were good at making music, but they did it.

some were - my aunt Minnie played church organ for fifty-some years without missing a single solitary week.

but it didn't matter either way - they learned because they did it together, they were shown and they practiced, not formally, just together as a family.


we're at a point where we've all but eliminated public resources for sharing music education en masse with our children through the public schools. sports and STEM absorb all possible funds.

fewer and fewer kids walk around with instrument cases. more and more earbuds though.

everything leans toward consumption.

creation is something others do, for money, in industry.

and that's bad news for storytelling, folks. and when storytelling suffers, we lose knowledge.

I have no citation for that, but it's a hill I'll die on.

I don't have a fancy pat answer.

This isn't a plea to sign my petition to direct tax dollars to more free recorders for tots.

It takes more of a shift than that would accomplish anyway.

but I'd like it if folk spent a little more time thinking about how they can encourage the young folk near them to create more than they consume.

not out of some drive to produce, or be successful, but to share, both knowledge and experiences. to participate in the story and the telling.

it's not good to feel like you're always on the wrong side of the glass. that's a really bad message to be sending millions of children every day, and it's exactly what our media systems are tuned for today.

we need to mitigate in any ways we can find.

thanks for reading my rambles.


@djsundog I have very mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I'd love people to be more creative and have access to creation tools and so on (and I think it's amazing that music creation software is so plentiful and easy to learn now)

On the other hand, I'd like to see earning-a-living-wage become unnecessary before entire creative industries collapse under the weight of devaluation

@djsundog not that the music industry has ever been kind to people who have tried to make a living as a musician

@fluffy yeah, that's part of what I'm saying tho - there should be non-commercial music in folks' life. it should be something that's there without being tied to a market.

that won't cut down the demand for good music - great music - new music, all those things need to come from somewhere, and it's not randomly dispersed - you know all too well the work that goes into the extra stuff around widely polishing and distributing a professional creative work that can not only bring enjoyment to others but also keep food on the artists' tables.

@djsundog yeah, and maybe greater access and practice in making music will make people realize just how hard it is and stop devaluing it so much. Go back to actually paying for music, ideally paying the artists directly instead of going through Spotify or whatever.

@fluffy without some musical background, most music appreciation is really marketing appreciation; the musicians involved should do better across the board with an audience with a better basis for choosing for themselves what they like rather than just consuming what they're fed, and that's good for diverse art I'd think.

@djsundog We, as a culture, have become very failure adverse.

There's this myth of being "good" at a thing, and that that somehow happens automatically, or not at all.

My grandfather is a world class piano player (and all around not great dude) but he's not a "natural" piano player. He's been playing nearly every day for 6 decades. He aught to be good by now.

@ajroach42 @djsundog One of my favorite observations about this is a passage from Vonnegut's "Bluebeard":

“...simply moderate giftedness has been made worthless by the printing press and radio and television and satellites and all that. A moderately gifted person who would have been a community treasure a thousand years ago has to give up, has to go into some other line of work, since modern communications put him or her into daily competition with nothing but world's champions.... A moderately gifted person has to keep his or her gifts all bottled up until, in a manner of speaking, he or she gets drunk at a wedding and tap-dances on the coffee table like Fred Astaire or Ginger Rogers. We have a name for him or her. We call him or her an "exhibitionist." How do we reward such an exhibitionist? We say to him or her the next morning, "Wow! Were you ever drunk last night!”"

@thermous @ajroach42 @djsundog this is an incredibly real #noospheric take. many thanks to you and vonnegut!! gonna have to read bluebeard i guess.

it was twain or vonnegut who left an impression on me long ago, saying something like the worst thing on the planet would be having to listen to the drama/tellings of random Russian princesses &c. just like, being subject to the drama/bs from all over.

@djsundog I'm listening to Mississippi John Hurt right now.

He's a moderately talented vocalist, and an okay guitar player.

He just plays folk blues.

Would he have learned to play had he been born 10 years later? 5?

@djsundog and the same thing could basically be said about most prominent blues musicians, and a fair number of folk and country performers.

You played because you played, the fact that people paid for it was a bonus (and an anomaly)


Permission to copy-paste this thread (with link and attribution) on my blog? This is golden.

@djsundog nice ramble, thank :) as I understand it, this sort of culture still survives in Ireland. And I note in lots of black gospel communities etc too. But it's definitely been mostly lost in England where I am.

@jdaviescoates 🙇 there are definitely communities - and large ones! - that are in a healthier spot than my viewpoint here in USia. they're the strongest communities around imo - that's part of how. long traditions of constant education and knowledge sharing, rather than control and commodification. a society cannot focus on both, really. not that I can think of an example of, anyway.

@djsundog I met a chap here in England whose family were all involved in gospel music. He said he wasn't good at singing and playing piano, but then he played. He was excellent (he was comparing himself to his musical family, I was comparing him to most people). Anyways, the reason I mention him is we're FB friends and he posts videos of e.g. black gospel families all singing together at home. I don't dig all the God stuff, but such videos leaving me longing for such everyday musical culture.

@jdaviescoates I grew up as a preacher's kid, so that was a big part of music in my early life too. I'm not involved with any church any more, and yeah, the musical void that left made me reconsider re-joining a church if only for the regular social music opportunities.

@djsundog outside of my complaints of similar things as a musician, i and also hav the vibe that i cant play/music around roommates/family

theres both insecurity and also years of being told to stop practicing because "i dont want to hear that"

like fuck what they want to hear i have to practice and im sorry that the activity isnt less invasive

when i lived in hippie jam pads in 2014-2015 i was given that chance to exp music as a SOCIAL activity and not merely an academic or consumer activity

@djsundog i read in your thread the term "apprentice" and thats a word i had missed and needed, so thank you for bringing this to my attention

bender was my mentor for busking and music (2015)

the dallas palace for better or worse was collectively my mentor for music (2014)

im at a point that even after 2-3 years of not playing trombone and uke, that i can pick them up and play them because thats how MUCH i was playing them

they became an extension of my being

@DrSagan that's exactly how important environment is to the whole thing, and I'm super happy you found better ones along the way (and hope you find yet more new ones in the future) :blobpats:

:scp: / pertainent 

@djsundog fast forward to december 2019 when i formally (and this time with meaning) joined the SCP Wiki

i had tried joining two other times, but deleted my account within a week because something felt off, i didnt feel i was mature or tactful enough for the site, and also not ready to make a commitment of being apart of the community (outside of reading)

ive read the site for a total of 12 years, 10 of those years w/o being on the site proper

and 8 of THOSE years in cali


@djsundog i also didnt want to join formally because the site is very intimate and sacred too it, it helped me keep my sanity when i was living and working out west from 2014-2021, some of those years spent homeless

SCP was something solid that i could carry with me and keep close to me, it was something that was always there no matter if i was in college (2009) or in my van (2015)

i didnt want a falling out with the community to put a bitter taste in my mouth while reading SCPs


@djsundog i knew i wasnt mature enough yet to not being an ass and get kicked out and have to burn that bridge

i didnt want to chance that with something so intimate and important to me

when i joined the site in 2019 i told myself "its now or never" when i joined i lurked mostly and quietly voted on articles

the exquisite corpse contest was announced in april 2020 and i asked myself if i wanted to make that jump

i told myself i would have to see the 2 month contest all the way through


@djsundog i felt like i had to do this to show the other writers that im capable of being a writer (and show myself)

i decided to go through baptism by fire, and that contest was TOUGH

the crits were TOUGH, the writing was TOUGH

but i saw the contest all the way through and it was my first time writing an article PERIOD

i became privy to the communal aspect of the site and how it functions like how the internet SHOULD function (not corporate, but a community)



the article didnt survive after the contest because it was truly a terribly written article, and i know this as a 10+ year old reader that it was BAD

but thats the thing isnt it? im not an experienced SCP writer, but i am an experienced SCP reader

whenever i jumped into the IRC from 2020-early 2021 i did crits and reviews and only that

because thats something im actually good at, is //mentoring// new writers

in early march of this year jam contest was announced


@djsundog tales were allowed and i decided 16 hours from the deadline to write a tale for that day's theme

that ended up being my first successful piece of writing on the site, and is now my second highest rated piece on the site

i waded further into the community, and solicited more crits and engaged more with the writers on the whole

and the end result was this contest tale

i showed the other writers that im a capable writer not just a capable critter

i also showed myself


@djsundog since then ive written four more tales and theyve all stuck to the site

even the 2 tales that i personally dont like are still on the site

as of april 1st im officially an author for the site because im qualified for an author page (3+ pieces of writing up on the site)

this only happened because im allowing myself to socialise and be apart of this; this has only happened because i have mentors

because NOW im an SCP writer apprentice

re: :scp:

@djsundog thank you!! i dont mean to sound like i was gloating, im more surprised and proud of myself for this exp

and that im able to exp this community at all


ive been working on an article since February, and kept it on the backburner

the 6kcon (contest for series 7) was announced last week and i realised "holy shit, the article i drafted in February actually fits the contest theme"

much like exquisite corpse con, i feel like ive learned more about writing in a very short amount of time compared to any english class

but the contest was announced last week


@djsundog within the last week ive learned a lot about writing SCP articles, and thats because of the sheer amount of critique ive solicited, research, and actual work ive done

its because im being MENTORED by veteran and established writers

im being mentored by new writers as well, because this is a communal deal

it doesnt matter if they are exp or not, they still have valid and good input

what im experiencing RIGHT NOW is reminiscent of what i experienced in 2014-2015 with music

:scp: 10 

@djsundog i learned more about music in that years time than i did with my decade of formal music training

i played trombone and uke everyday for a year and a half, its an extension of myself

but this was through the social fabric of what youre writing about

im learning more about writing and storytelling in the last year from writing and analyzing SCPs everyday

through the social fabric present on the wiki that i hope dearly isnt a dying tradition or culture (masto exists for ex)

:scp: 11 

@djsundog what im learning from the wiki is something that i can carry to myself closely and intimately like i have with the site for 12 years

except it isnt reliant on the site, its the art of writing and storytelling itself

which IS a social art form that i can do that isnt "invasive" like music

im very grateful for this site, and im astounded that my exp currently with it echos my exp living in hippie jam pads and busking

:scp: 12 

@djsundog and once again, SCP is the only thing keeping me sane while i deal with a toxic situation and abusive people

but im no longer alone, im no longer on the outside of this community looking in and worried that i might not be mature enough to be apart of it

that damn site is now helping me keep my sanity in a way that its never done

im hearing the individual instruments of the symphonic cacophony of the site, as well as picking up my own instrument and joining in the song

@djsundog anyway, i realise this was long, thank you for reading

and thank you for what you wrote because i have the terms now to describe my current experience

im an "apprentice (SCP) writer"

Show newer

@djsundog Creating music is probably easier on a technically level than it was ever before, but IMO this also leads to the opposite problem, where people feel uncomfortable making the first steps when they are constantly surrounded by extremely professional and technically complex music

It'd be similarly hard to motivate yourself to learn to paint when there's a Picasso on every corner

@elomatreb yeah, this is totally a thing too! but it's kinda like saying "cars are cool, I think I'd like to check out how to work on cars" and having someone say "okay, here's a set of professional tools and a garage. mess around a bit, watch some youtube videos if you get stuck."

our messaging, our teaching, needs fixing, badly.

@djsundog tbf, that's basically how my brother is teaching himself :P He's a year into his apprenticeship as a motorcycle mechanic and he has probably replaced every part on his bike twice

But I get what you mean. Teaching music is hard, when we did music theory in class I was extremely bored but when I tried to do some music on the computer I would have really liked to remember some of it, and looking such things up yourself is pretty hard

@elomatreb yeah, that's the magic word - apprenticeship. apprentices are supposed to have mentors, not only answering questions or assigning tasks, but leading the apprentice through the knowledge space and making sure they learn their way around and feel at home. youtube videos and software tutorials don't do that for everyone. there needs to be more, but we regularly abandon more personal modes of knowledge transfer because it's too hard or expensive or individualized, and that's crap lol.

@djsundog My grandparents and I are doing some of this! (Well I’m the young folk encouraging the old folk 😉)


At the end of every Big Boys(influential Austin punk band) show I ever saw, the lead singer, Biscuit, shouted "Now go out and start your own band."

Also Tim, the guitar player of the Big Boys, AFAIK, was the first punk musician that was also way into skateboarding. Most people thought that happened in California.


Your chart is ready, and can be found here:


Things may have changed since I started compiling that, and some things may have been inaccessible.

The chart will eventually be deleted, so if you'd like to keep it, make sure you download a copy.


in England (a small country) older people need to chill out a bit about neighbourhood noise; young people often *do* want to make music but they fear being grassed up to the Police or other authorities when practising (especially electronic music or DJ sets), also there are fewer venues to play at due to paranoia over alcohol and drugs use...

@djsundog my parents, bless their hearts, taught me everything they knew about musicmaking and storytelling, the same way they taught me about emotional intelligence and interpersonal connection:

namely, how to make do without, and which pursuits were More Important Anyway.

it’s been a long road uphill since then, but my family and I have been getting better.

@djsundog I'm starting to see STEAM (where A = Arts) being bandied about more often. It'll be awhile before that takes hold though.

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